Opinion on Exp Gain ie thread count

[Mr. Seran]

So I've not been told directly but through Sarah there were some concerns on Exp gain not so much that the distribution is unwise but rather the regulation of such is so. For example:
2 people posting to reach two pages to barely meet requirements and get the exp whereas two people posting an excess of the requirements and getting the same reward.

Correct me if I'm wrong in assuming this was the concern.

To which I agree whole heartedly. There needs to be better regulation on these but the concern I bring up is excess inflation exp. But if theres a way we can manage to solve both I'd be completely alright with this.

How is it that we can make this work?
Give me a few solutions either in this thread or through Pm.
Remember this is your site too feel free to give input on ways to make things better.

The exp gain for posts is a relatively new system and I expect will require tweaks in the process of making it better and your help is greatly appreciated.

[Jack]

Naturally, when one brings in such regulations the concern for inflation's a real one. I for one believe that if I were to categorize the exp gain level (stat gain) on this forum it'd be around medium, so increasing the exp gain (stat gain) on such standard rewards as these would be inadvisable.

One thing that I've noticed is the ridiculous levels of Charisma and Intelligence with no drawbacks to physical stats something which as you know first hand is a little harder to do on a forum like #552 where's exp gain (stat gain) isn't as easy to come by, this is obviously mirrored by other sites which offer easier ways to gain exp(stats)

People should post for the development, if they want exp, there are classes, after hours, clubs, monthly events and quests. There are more then enough ways out there to earn exp, even easier now that you've changed it two two clubs or two sports (I think) a month or one club and one sport (once again I think).

This has doubled the opportunity to gain anywhere from 2 exp to 10 exp extra a month which is more then the majority of Xin sites would offer.

I think it would be better to leave it up to the moderator's discretion, whether or not to add extra exp or give them the standard 1 exp for (two people) posted up to or excess of one full page each (roughly 15 posts each) however I don't think the +1 exp should be taken away. It's a nice little addition to the board that separates it from the others.

[Ceraphine Davis]

Okay, I stated this to Ryan last night, but putting it up here for those who wish to know.

My opinion on the matter is that the +1 exp gain per two page thread is indeed something that keeps this board different than others and it allows for those who do not fight the ability to gain exp.

But I have seen first hand, as the one in charge of approving these stats, that several people barely work to meet the minimum reqs, while others post for the fun of it and in two people threads manage to get to 4 pages ( which i am sure they could do more but as of right now 4 pages for 2 people is the best I have seen in my time as the one in charge of that section )...to me, it seems unfair that those who post up double what is req get the same amount of exp as those who barely put forth any effort.

I think there should be some system worked out for those who work harder and post more substantially.

Now I fully understand that there are some threads you just CANNOT be pushed to meet the reqs fully, or further, but gaining exp is supposed to be a challenge and therefore it cannot just be handed out easily as some may wish.

For that there are things such as classes, clubs, sports, and things of that nature.

I just feel that for those who do more, they should get more. To sum it up basically. Yet, this is just my opinion. I get that there are some concerns about the amount gained through fights. Due mostly to the fact that the gain of such is easier on other sites than it is here.

On that matter I really have not come up with something that would work so I honestly do not have an opinion on the matter atm.....But I will think on the matter today and post up my opinion when I come up with something.

[nathaniel]

Okay, in all honesty, I find that the stat system for this site is far superior than all of the other XIN boards because of the ability to gain stats just from writing a decent amount. I like that, as most of the characters that I create usually have some sort of RP handicap that makes it nearly impossible for them to gain stats in some of the more normal ways. Take Nathaniel for example. He isn't enrolled in any sort of schooling, which takes away his ability to take part in classes and nearly all events that are created, as they are made for the students. This, in turn, makes it that much harder for me to gain stats and keep up with the rest of the board, and I'm sure that there will be others that will have this predicament. if there aren't already.

I am not complaining, as I chose to make my character the way he is. I am just showing that there will be faults in any sort of stat system that you come up with. But, anyway, back to the subject at hand. I can understand some people's concerns with wanting to receive more stats for putting in more effort than some of the other members of the board, as I know what its like to feel like all of your effort is for nothing more than your own amusement, but I'm not sure if giving them more points for their effort is the best thing to do. It might make since, as that is how most things go in life, but if it is done it should be discussed and developed carefully and not just slapped into the experience section like a sticky note.

I have a couple of different ideas in mind that I'll share with everybody, and you can gobble them up and regurgitate them back up as soon as you want. I've been known for my ideas at time, so figured I might as well try to help in one of the only ways that I can. So, the first idea I had was that you could simply take away the 2 full pages part of the experience rule and then increase the number of words that is required from the thread to gain a stat point. I, personally, like this idea because it seems to fix the problem of people complaining about all the work they put into things and still getting the same amount of points as those that maybe put in half the time and effort. Its much easier to get 2 pages with short posts than to get a set number of words in a thread.

Now, I'm not sure what would be a decent word count for a stat point reward, as my idea of an average post is a little different from most others, but if you decided to implement this I'm sure you could come up with something. You could even possibly add an additional point for a set number of words achieved after the first marker, and go on from there. I'm not saying that this is the 'best' idea out there, its just one that hasn't been brought up yet.

As for a way to fix the super high charisma and intelligence stats, that Jack has brought to our attention, I'd suggest that you make it so that by achieving whatever the goal is to gain a stat point, you can put that point into any of the stats. I understand why it was made so that only mental stats would increase, but I think that it is slightly unfair for those that choose not to fight to not be able to increase their physical stats while simply enjoying some sort of non-violent interaction with other characters. If anything, it should be changed so that fights only give you stats to physical attributes so that things are more balanced out. I think that giving people the choice of any attribute for their writing stat point is the smartest way, but again this is just my opinion.

That's about all I really have to say on the matter at hand, and I hope that I was at least somewhat helpful to the staff and members of the site. If not, I suppose I can just go hide in a bush until I feel that my stupidity has been forgotten. So, for now, I leave you with a smile. ;D

[Mr. Seran]

Hmm thank you for pointing out something I missed.
but okay lets start from th top I hope I get all this right.

One thing that I've noticed is the ridiculous levels of Charisma and Intelligence with no drawbacks to physical stats something which as you know first hand is a little harder to do on a forum like #552 where's exp gain (stat gain) isn't as easy to come by, this is obviously mirrored by other sites which offer easier ways to gain exp(stats)

The reasoning I put a lot of requirements first off for Int & Charisma is because these go relatively neglected throughout Xin. Be that in regards of fighting or simple roleplaying. Naturally a person with low Intelligence is going to have a harder time attacking other people (accuracy wise) but this goes on being abused and looped into Wisdom but also with a low Int comes less reasoning to avoid a fight (due to simply being stupid or below average). As well Charisma goes unnoticed unless its tied to Qi wherein the manipulation of NPC's is based off of Charisma as well. Now with each of those stats being neglected I made the rules as they were now in order to benefit those who weren't uber tank like people. And Generally I think it comes to a meek balance at some point seeing as people with High charisma participating in After Hours events don't start banking on money until after 10 posts + or once their charisma breaks say 50, whereas in the same instant a fighter tank character can accumulate high points at a constant rate before Charisma users can catch up.

People should post for the development, if they want exp, there are classes, after hours, clubs, monthly events and quests. There are more then enough ways out there to earn exp, even easier now that you've changed it two two clubs or two sports (I think) a month or one club and one sport (once again I think).

however I don't think the +1 exp should be taken away. It's a nice little addition to the board that separates it from the others.

Aye this I very much agree with, posting should be about character development and that if people more particularly want to go about stat whoring they should stick to the normal ways about it aforementioned. But I'd also like to reward people with improving upon their writings. For example a good friend of mine from IRL Verrat was hands down a terrible writer, could barely squeeze a sentance to post with him. However in his most recent AH thread I've seen his writing greatly improve. Which is where I lead into my next topic.

Regarding going passed the requirements, improving upon yourself and your character. Another option I was going to delve into was offer Items at a certain point, Items that wouldn't necessarily give stat bonuses (thus reducing inflation), but rather give your character some RP based ability (Development). This is entirely up to you guys give me feedback much appreciated.

But I have seen first hand, as the one in charge of approving these stats, that several people barely work to meet the minimum reqs, while others post for the fun of it and in two people threads manage to get to 4 pages ( which i am sure they could do more but as of right now 4 pages for 2 people is the best I have seen in my time as the one in charge of that section )...to me, it seems unfair that those who post up double what is req get the same amount of exp as those who barely put forth any effort.

I believe I discussed you with this last night but have yet to update anything.
Okay so the two pages deal I figured needed to be better phrased 2 pages being at least 28 posts. So thats pretty deep into the second page.

So, the first idea I had was that you could simply take away the 2 full pages part of the experience rule and then increase the number of words that is required from the thread to gain a stat point. I, personally, like this idea because it seems to fix the problem of people complaining about all the work they put into things and still getting the same amount of points as those that maybe put in half the time and effort. Its much easier to get 2 pages with short posts than to get a set number of words in a thread.

Personally I think this is a great idea. So long as there is no one opposed to this I'm in favor of testing this out for a month until we get in the groove of things. It both prevents an abuse, and will greatly increase Roleplaying abilities and the knack for stories so long as people are preferential to getting stats.

I understand why it was made so that only mental stats would increase, but I think that it is slightly unfair for those that choose not to fight to not be able to increase their physical stats while simply enjoying some sort of non-violent interaction with other characters. If anything, it should be changed so that fights only give you stats to physical attributes so that things are more balanced out. I think that giving people the choice of any attribute for their writing stat point is the smartest way, but again this is just my opinion.

My touch on this is; The post count turn ins effect only Mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) because 1) We don't want this abused and of course obsessive fighters like me going crazy high stats, 2) Like Jack said there are other ways outside of fights to increase your physical abilities ie: AH, Classes, Quests etc. 3) The creator of this system and I agreed that it made sense to add to a socializing stat hence why if you fight and make it to the limit requirements you gain both a physical stat and a mental stat. Now I see there are of course loopholes to this for example:

I was working out in this thread, not fighting just working out.

Well then the solution to that would be, Pm a Me, a mod, a Helper and ask for permission to change it based on the terms of the thread. If they see your valid point behind it then they can approve it and go "Oh hey you're right you are a muscle head LOL"

---

But seriously guys thanks for the input and help on this XD

[Jack]

[quote[The reasoning I put a lot of requirements first off for Int & Charisma is because these go relatively neglected throughout Xin. Be that in regards of fighting or simple roleplaying. Naturally a person with low Intelligence is going to have a harder time attacking other people (accuracy wise) but this goes on being abused and looped into Wisdom but also with a low Int comes less reasoning to avoid a fight (due to simply being stupid or below average). As well Charisma goes unnoticed unless its tied to Qi wherein the manipulation of NPC's is based off of Charisma as well. Now with each of those stats being neglected I made the rules as they were now in order to benefit those who weren't uber tank like people. And Generally I think it comes to a meek balance at some point seeing as people with High charisma participating in After Hours events don't start banking on money until after 10 posts + or once their charisma breaks say 50, whereas in the same instant a fighter tank character can accumulate high points at a constant rate before Charisma users can catch up.
[/quote]

Intimidation works just as well as reasoning sometimes. Think about such characters and Ark and Stein. Both had shocking Intelligence levels and Charisma (from what I can remember) Yet through their sadistic nature they manipulated people (NPC's too) to do what they wanted.

On the other hand you were a knight in shining Armour for the much neglected Charisma stat and used it to win fights anyway bringing your physical stats up later.

are more then enough ways out there to earn exp, even easier now that you've changed it two two clubs or two sports (I think) a month or one club and one sport (once again I think).

however I don't think the +1 exp should be taken away. It's a nice little addition to the board that separates it from the others.

I noticed, I quite liked the item I was somewhat jealous *Hints why Jack started his job thread -.- shhhh* Also I liked how it gave no stat bonus yet, the item affect mixed with stats could make it a deadly weapon

So, the first idea I had was that you could simply take away the 2 full pages part of the experience rule and then increase the number of words that is required from the thread to gain a stat point. I, personally, like this idea because it seems to fix the problem of people complaining about all the work they put into things and still getting the same amount of points as those that maybe put in half the time and effort. Its much easier to get 2 pages with short posts than to get a set number of words in a thread.

Personally I think this is a great idea. So long as there is no one opposed to this I'm in favor of testing this out for a month until we get in the groove of things. It both prevents an abuse, and will greatly increase Roleplaying abilities and the knack for stories so long as people are preferential to getting stats.

Ehh... test it see how it goes but wouldn't adding them make more sense having say a minimum of 5000 words with 2 pages? because lets be honest... I can easily post 5000 words (as I have) then two pages (which I found harder)... although you have my vote to test it.

I understand why it was made so that only mental stats would increase, but I think that it is slightly unfair for those that choose not to fight to not be able to increase their physical stats while simply enjoying some sort of non-violent interaction with other characters. If anything, it should be changed so that fights only give you stats to physical attributes so that things are more balanced out. I think that giving people the choice of any attribute for their writing stat point is the smartest way, but again this is just my opinion.

My touch on this is; The post count turn ins effect only Mental stats (Int, Wis, Cha) because 1) We don't want this abused and of course obsessive fighters like me going crazy high stats, 2) Like Jack said there are other ways outside of fights to increase your physical abilities ie: AH, Classes, Quests etc. 3) The creator of this system and I agreed that it made sense to add to a socializing stat hence why if you fight and make it to the limit requirements you gain both a physical stat and a mental stat. Now I see there are of course loopholes to this for example:

I was working out in this thread, not fighting just working out.

Well then the solution to that would be, Pm a Me, a mod, a Helper and ask for permission to change it based on the terms of the thread. If they see your valid point behind it then they can approve it and go "Oh hey you're right you are a muscle head LOL"

This just makes the Clubs threads useless. If you want to get physical stats from your posts outside of fighting it's simple. PM me, tell me someone else who'll RP with you and I'll make a Cross Fitness thread, Weightlifting thread, gym thread, bodybuilding thread, martial arts thread, or any sports club thread. These all give physical stat bonus'!!!!!! like wise you could join a sports team! which means you don't have to pay to set it up as it's already an official school team. Seriously... there are no short cuts, only easier paths that the staff have created for you, and they're there to be abused!

[Ceraphine Davis]

*rubs temples* Why do I get the feeling my jobs about to get a lot harder?

Not to mention I am too lazy to quote you guys.....Lol

Hehe

Nah but seriously, I am all for a trial run of that idea, so long as it does not cause too many problems. Which if it does then I will need people to PM me their issues or contact me on MSN so I can discuss them with the rest of the staff.

Other than that, I am content with the way the stat system seems to be working out.....I think their are plenty of ways for people to earn stats, it is just a matter of them trying. Like my class.....It is worth a full +5 exp, and I plan ( now that I have a base structure down for it ) to have at least one class a month, two if everything runs smoothly.....The problem is, people tend to forget, lose interest, or just down right don't care about posting up. They are lost in the conclusion that such events wait for them if it is their turn, and though I understand there are some situations where this cannot be helped, I feel that if they are a regularly active member and just fail to post then they should lose stats points for the class, club, whatever.......Which is what I am doing in my class thread.

It just ensures that things dont get drug out so long that the ability to gain stats is hindered. *shrugs* Again just my opinion.

Anyways, just lemme know when you have come up with a new trial stat system, so I can have it to go by when going over threads to approve.

[Ari Haswari]

I reserve my onion until someone can condense all this for me, or until Monday when I have more time.

[Séamus]

Okay... I can't believe I am actually going to comment on this, mostly because I haven't been around this place much but here goes.

First on the subject Jack brought up of Stein and Ark, indeed they both had shocking Int and Cha. However only because both had 5 Cha. Still no one would say that these two should not have been able to gain massive amounts of followers because of how the characters interacted with the student body (PCs and NPCs alike). They didn't swoon followers by charming speeches, they did it through shear terror, which Jack alluded to. To use a quote I remember, "It is better to stand beside the devil than in his path." i.e. NPCs would follow these two to prevent themselves from being turned into some gruesome masterpiece of violence... not because the guy was "likable".

On this "problem" of the requirements for thread exp gain. I think the problem is your approach by trying to make it something objective when in all fairness I don't think I could be. Several years ago 259 tried a system of thread turn-in and the basis for exp awarding was completely subjective. It shouldn't be words or pages that determine what you get but what you and your character DID with those words and pages. The content or quality of a thread over quantity. Remember the number of words do NOT was always equal quality. I've read threads that were four pages of nothing spectacular and read some that don't go past the first page that are all time favorites because of content that takes place. I best example of a long thread of nothing would be on 499... two character went 36 pages... PAGES!!! and most of it was nothing but simple interaction with no deeper meaning. Should they get more than two people with a deep development thread that changes their characters that only needs to go 13 posts? I don't think so.

On the bit about Cha and Int being ignored for other stats in places. Really I think the fault lies with the stats themselves. Here it is mentioned how they each apply to fights, however people will forgot and start to go off the words basic meaning. It is a slippery slop but perhaps a small change in their presentation would fix that. Make Int something more conducive to what it governs fight wise and how well you execute attacks, or make Wisdom what it is and take the questioning out of it. Wisdom and Intelligence are very close in definition, however Wisdom on Xin boards is nothing more than Perception.

Side-note to this: I've never thought it exactly fair that how well your character interacts with others and their base Intelligence were put into quantifiable categories. If someone wanted to be a ridiculously book smart character they shouldn't have to put points into a category and hurt themselves else where. Most people do this anyway to where a new character with 30 has straight A's and the oldbie have just thrown junk points into and have a 40 now but C average. Now having the influence over NPCs and Qi effects tied to Charisma makes it useful, if only secondary. But tying book smarts to fighting ability is foolish. The smartest person I know is my mom, who has enough Degrees to wallpaper a bathroom including 2 Masters and a Doctorate... she has absolutely no common sense about most things or any sense of money management... I doubt see would even know the first thing about throwing a punch.

Okay... I said my bit.

*disappears*

[Mr. Seran]

Intimidation works just as well as reasoning sometimes. Think about such characters and Ark and Stein. Both had shocking Intelligence levels and Charisma (from what I can remember) Yet through their sadistic nature they manipulated people (NPC's too) to do what they wanted.

On the other hand you were a knight in shining Armour for the much neglected Charisma stat and used it to win fights anyway bringing your physical stats up later.

Aye and I feel that is best displayed through characterization. I'm not stopping from characters from using NPC's just enforcing that with a higher charisma effect they'd be able to use NPC's with stats as portrayed in my own gang thread : Clicky

On this "problem" of the requirements for thread exp gain. I think the problem is your approach by trying to make it something objective when in all fairness I don't think I could be. Several years ago 259 tried a system of thread turn-in and the basis for exp awarding was completely subjective. It shouldn't be words or pages that determine what you get but what you and your character DID with those words and pages. The content or quality of a thread over quantity. Remember the number of words do NOT was always equal quality. I've read threads that were four pages of nothing spectacular and read some that don't go past the first page that are all time favorites because of content that takes place. I best example of a long thread of nothing would be on 499... two character went 36 pages... PAGES!!! and most of it was nothing but simple interaction with no deeper meaning. Should they get more than two people with a deep development thread that changes their characters that only needs to go 13 posts? I don't think so.

Yes I'm very familiar with this in fact though only second hand seeing as I joined 259 after this was thrown out. My concern specifically with judging a thread based on the merit of it is:
A) How am I (or for that matter anyone) able to judge the thread based on importance or character growth but the person themselves? Like I find a few characters interesting and others that bore me at times but how am I to judge that their growth has mattered in any specific direction? How do I know this won't be abused? IE: A character who's not very ambitious who settles for not caring about anything and the more he disintegrates into that field the more dark he gets vs a very ambitious person doing much of the same but as an upward trend to affect th entire board. It comes down to one's own personal outlook on how they aim to create their character. And I don't want to be the judge of that or favor a system that breeds all characters into the same trend.
B) If you could regulate this by some means how would you go about doing so? Keep in mind abuses with rewards.

Not trying to put your opinion down just trying to give a perspective. As much as I'd love to give out rewards out the wahzoo for great deeds I want to keep inflation in check.

A possible interpretation to this which is what I'd definitely like to see is some board wide discussions. Talks about your character, about how they interact with others, some big plays for power, or deep discussions so that the Staff, we can interpret what direction you're intending to go and grow as a character. This way its not from just our perspective and we can reward you for a direction you can feel good about.

On the bit about Cha and Int being ignored for other stats in places. Really I think the fault lies with the stats themselves. Here it is mentioned how they each apply to fights, however people will forgot and start to go off the words basic meaning. It is a slippery slop but perhaps a small change in their presentation would fix that. Make Int something more conducive to what it governs fight wise and how well you execute attacks, or make Wisdom what it is and take the questioning out of it. Wisdom and Intelligence are very close in definition, however Wisdom on Xin boards is nothing more than Perception.

I'll post something and link it here later for a more defined sense of my interpretation. I know everyone's is fairly different all things considered and we can discuss and better define these stats as a whole.

Clicky

[Mr. Seran]

Okay so more or less I've come to a decision on this.

For threads turning in you'll need a minimum of 28 posts to receive +1 mental stat. If you think it deserves a physical stat distribution or think you deserve more exp based on content or importance to character development pm the thread link and reason's why to a Moderator or me and please give us time to read through to get back to you on that. Its the moderator's decision so don't go double dipping around to other staff for a better deal.

If it surpasses the requirements in both word counts and page counts you have potential to get an item with an effect bonus (non stat), money, or materials to build an item pending your thread completion.

AH Threads have money value though pending content and growth are viable to receive similar rewards.

Clubs and sports will yield greater exp distribution in either mental or physical exp depending on their focus. ie The Archery club can be physical if focus is on Strength or if its based on focus could be based on wisdom.

Most importantly, if you feel as though you've put a lot of effort into a thread, feel you've improved or built upon a character pm me or a staff member to request a reward in doing so. include link to thread, and reasoning behind it so Staff can deliberate. Give us some time on that we're not perfect and may take time getting to that.

Any other concerns?

[Jack]

To save creating another thread and offering some other members to help us in this template I'll just post a reply here instead of wasting space.

Guy sent me a PM with a brilliant Idea and it's got us thinking but I'd like this to be a group effort both players and staff.

For archery club there are four key stats at play, you have strength which we've equated to how far you can shoot your arrow, intelligence how accurate you can shoot your arrow, wisdom, when shooting a moving target ect, the ability to track it and release your arrow accurately and lastly dexterity which would govern how fast your can draw and shoot.

What's your take on this extremely basic template that Guy and I have thought up?

[Mr. Seran]

Wow thats actually a very good application I think I'll have to keep an eye on your thread and see how it develops. First one on the board I imagine so it'll be a good test for all of us to work on.

The rewards I'd say would be a wide margin and a good show of growth.

[Séamus]

May 18, 2010 0:41:15 GMT -5 Mr. Seran said:

Any other concerns?

Just one... fights do not count for this correct?

[Jack]

May 18, 2010 12:19:55 GMT -5 Mr. Seran said:

Wow thats actually a very good application I think I'll have to keep an eye on your thread and see how it develops. First one on the board I imagine so it'll be a good test for all of us to work on.

The rewards I'd say would be a wide margin and a good show of growth.

All credit goes to Guy.